Mischief Makers Episode 11: Paul Brown
[Upbeat music plays]
Host: Welcome to Mischief Makers, your one stop shop for all things Mischief. Join your host Dave Hearn, as he finds out what makes Mischief... well, Mischief!Dave Hearn: Hello and welcome to another episode of Mischief Makers with me your host, Dave Hearn. And today we have a very special episode, because I am joined by the wonderful Mr Paul Brown. Hello Paul!
Paul Brown: Hello, hello Dave!
DH: So for those of you who don't know Paul, Paul was an understudy on our West End show Groan Ups and you also graduated from Royal Welsh, is that right?
PB: Yes I did in 2019, so last year.
DH: Great, so we're going to talk about that in a little while. But just as a kind of preface for the episode, today's episode is going to be a little bit different than usual - because we're going to be talking to Paul not only about how you got into acting, your journey to join us at Mischief...
PB: Yeah.
DH: Now you can never leave!
[Both laugh]
DH: But also your West End debut with us as well.
PB: Yeah, pretty cool. That was pretty amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DH: Yeah. But we'll also be devoting quite a lot of the time actually to the Black Lives Matter movement and chatting about that. Now I am aware that I am a white man, so Paul - I imagine I will be leaving you to do most of the talking!
PB: [Laughs] Thank you and I take that responsibility, yeah.
DH: But also, we kind of chatted about this the other day - we should say that the aim of this as well is to make sure that we are amplifying your voice and giving voices to people of colour. The intention of the podcast is not to kind of virtue signal or show that I'm not racist because I have a black friend.
[PB laughs]
DH: I understand that myself and Mischief, we have a lot of work to do to kind of balance the scales. So we're here to listen and learn. And it's also worth mentioning as well that you are one man and you are a brilliant man, but these are your opinions and people may agree or disagree with you. There's no pressure here for you to speak on behalf of all people of colour.
PB: Yeah.
DH: So we can just have a chat.
PB: Yeah, that'll be great. And I'm not... as much as I would love to be, I am not Martin Luther King! So I...
[Both laugh]
PB: So I'm not like a personal representative for all black people.
DH: But yeah, we'll talk about it...
PB: Great, great.
DH: And we'll have a lovely chat. So why don't we get started, why don't you tell us about where you grew up and where you went to school? Things like that.
PB: Yeah, great. So I grew up in South London and I grew up mainly round like Crystal Palace area. And I went to St Anthony's in Anerley which is near Crystal Palace, so really South London. Then I went to secondary school and I went to Bishop Thomas Grant and it was there really that I kind of got my love for acting, that's where it really came from. I auditioned for Macbeth in like Year 7 and I think at that time, Year 7's didn't get put in the school plays.
DH: Oh wow!
PB: It was mainly like for the older years. But for some reason, quite a few people in our year (including one of my best mates Rohan, who's now a terrific actor), we all just decided to audition for it and then yeah, got in! And from there, kind of really discovered my passion and love for acting.
DH: What part did you play in Macbeth?
PB: I played Macduff, so I played Macduff and then my mate Rohan played Macbeth.
DH: Sure.
PB: So the final bit at the end, that was great! It was pretty cool to do.
DH: Yeah, Macduff is always a really good part. It's quite a hard part, Macbeth and Macduff... how old are you in Year 7, you're like 13?
PB: [Laughs] You're like 11!
DH: Oh wow! That's so intense!
PB: Yeah. But obviously it was like the Shakespeare Schools Festival, so it was abridged. So I [don't] think it was a very kind of as intense version of a full three hour epic!
DH: I see, yeah. I don't know if some 11 year olds would have the emotional stamina for that kind of...
PB: Yeah, no, no! Not at all! We're too busy worrying about like Pokémon or something, I don't know.
DH: Oh man, I loved Pokémon!
PB: Pokémon's great.
DH: So do you think that production was any good?
PB: [Pauses slightly] Um...
[Both laugh]
PB: I mean in hindsight, probably not! But then, we're 11 year olds trying to speak Shakespeare and not really having a clue of what actually it is that we're saying. So I mean, I came on, said some words, held up a skull at the end to show that I conquered Macbeth, and people said I did a good job. So you know, I'll take that!
DH: That's the dream.
PB: Exactly, it is - you know?
DH: I really applaud that bravery actually. Because I think at the age of 11, I didn't actually really start acting properly until I was 17.
PB: Right, yeah.
DH: And I think... I suppose 11, to tackle Macbeth as well that's amazing. But do you feel like looking back on it now, that it was like a really steep learning curve? Or was it just something you did?
PB: I mean I think at 11, it's just something that you do. It's not... I think if anything I learned how to just properly be on stage in front of people. I think that more than anything, when I did that I said, "Actually do you know what? I like this, I like performing." So I think that's probably what I took more from it than any kind of acting or anything, you know?
DH: Sure, yeah - that's the kind of spark that ignited the fire, if you will.
PB: Exactly, yeah, exactly. And I think that's why I kind of did that and just went, "Yeah, do you know what? I'm going to do that!" It probably coincides with the fact that up until this point, I was quite sporty in the sense that I played like a lot of basketball, cricket...
DH: Sure.
PB: And then as soon as I got into acting, I mean - everything dropped at that point. You ask any of my friends, I am not sporty in the slightest!
[Both laugh]
PB: Ball games is not my forte any more! So I think that definitely happened, for sure.
DH: Both kind of equally unstable career choices to kind of go down.
PB: Yeah.
DH: But I'm glad you've made this choice.
PB: Thank you! Yeah.
DH: I think it's a better one. And how old are you now? Because you're...
PB: I'm 25.
DH: Oh wow! 25! For some reason I thought you were younger than that, but I don't know why. Yeah - I think maybe because you joined us just after you graduated, I now feel like an old man. I just assume that everyone who graduates must be like 10 or something!
PB: [Laughs] Sure, sure!
DH: But that's more me, I think.
PB: Well I think I was definitely one of the youngest in the company. Me and Holly [Sumpton] were like the same age?
DH: I think Holly has just turned 25, yeah.
PB: 25, exactly. So yeah, I definitely feel young - 25 now.
DH: Nice - a wise man! And so how did you find secondary school?
PB: So secondary school was interesting for me actually, because obviously acting really became a massive focal point for me at secondary school. And obviously it's tough because you're going through so much in secondary school: you're growing up, you're kind of figuring out like who you are as a person. And you know, one thing that was big for me actually was around Year 9 (so I'm probably what 14 at this age). And that's around the age that my Mum first got diagnosed with cancer, which was a huge thing.
DH: Oh wow.
PB: And because my father's never been around, so it's only ever really just been me and my Mum. So there straight away with a level of kind of weighted responsibility of like knowing what's happening, as well as trying to also have the freedom of what a teenager is meant to have as well. So yes, that definitely was something of a battle, I'd say. But thankfully, there was great support within the school and within my friends as well. Some of my closest friends are actually still from secondary school.
DH: Wow.
PB: They've been there through everything, which has been great. So secondary school definitely had its challenges at times to kind of balance still being a kid but you know, trying to be an adult at the same time.
DH: Yeah because did you have to look after your Mum in any way?
PB: Yeah, so I mean I would have. So my Mum unfortunately passed away about six and a half years ago now.
DH: Wow, okay.
PB: Due to cancer. But my Mum was deaf, so even from a young age - I went everywhere with my Mum, to obviously interpret for my Mum effectively. So things like shopping and whatever, but even like doctors’ appointments. And it wasn't until later on (later on towards the end of her life really) that provisions were made in things like doctors and GP's and surgeries, that actually they would have an adult interpreter in there for my Mum.
DH: Yeah.
PB: So a lot of it was just me going in there and having to sign for her really.
DH: So did you essentially pass on the diagnosis?
PB: Have you... sorry, how do you mean?
DH: So you got the diagnosis of cancer from the doctor. But did you have to sign that to your Mum?
PB: Oh no. So actually my Mum told me, I think that was around the time when she started to have an interpreter.
DH: Okay.
PB: So that came more from... my Mum told me basically that she had that. Yeah.
DH: Wow, that's such an amazing kind of... it's a real tragic thing to happen, but I imagine that's sort of quite a blunt instrument into growing up very quickly around that time.
PB: Yeah, what? In terms of the sign language and cancer and...?
DH: Yeah, that kind of whole thing. Because I feel like if you're spending a lot of your younger life interpreting for an adult, you must have a kind of strange window into the adult world that other kids might not have got.
PB: Yeah, I mean I was definitely privy to things that a lot of kids probably wouldn't have, which is weird because I think it kind of messes with your psyche a bit. Because again, you're still kind of figuring out how the world is - you're still figuring all that out. But at the same time, like for example we don't come from money at all, and so I remember growing up wanting a PlayStation (as most kids do) and I never had one and sure whatever. But I remember just being really confused as to why I didn't have a PlayStation, but at the same time knowing that my Mum didn't necessarily have the finances for that. But that still wasn’t a correlation for me. That wasn't making sense to me. So it was more of a head spin for me, yeah.
DH: Because it's things like that I suppose now you look back on and you kind of go, "Well of course I didn't have a PlayStation".
PB: Yeah, yeah!
DH: But at the time it's like, "I don't get how that works..."
PB: Yeah exactly. I look back on it and I'm like, "Well obviously I didn't have a PlayStation!"
[Both laugh]
PB: We were very much trying to have food on the table, so that was obviously much more of a priority than playing FIFA or whatever.
DH: [Jokes] I don't know, man!
[PB laughs]
DH: [Jokes] Food or games? What's more important?
PB: Well, I mean hey - I can't play FIFA. So I'll definitely go for the food, for sure! I'll do that.
DH: I think to be honest now mate, I think it's a bit of a blessing. Because I did have... well this is an example maybe of my privilege here, in a kind of materialistic form. I did have a PlayStation, but now I spend... they do this thing now on consoles where they tell you how many hours you've played a game.
PB: Ahh.
DH: And it's crippling, mate. You know you spend days of your life on these things!
[Both laugh]
DH: And I tell myself, "They're good for you, they're brain exercises". Just read a book! Learn something, you know? See I have to actively get off them now.
PB: Well actually saying that, I've actually just bought myself a Kindle actually.
DH: Nice.
PB: And that's been great, that's been pretty good.
DH: You know what they say about a Kindle though, mate? It's the gateway gamers! It's how you get into gaming!
PB: I'm going to have to disagree with you there! Although saying that, I did have a computer and I remember playing Football Manager and that was my FIFA. There was a point where I was horribly addicted.
DH: I don't even like football, but yeah - I got addicted to it as well!
PB: It gets to a point where you start from 2008 and I think there was one time within a couple of months I got to 2038!
DH: Wow!
PB: And I had like our own stadium named after me!
[DH laughs]
PB: It was great - I felt like I'd achieved something. And then you do kind of step back and go, "Wow, I probably should stop doing this..."
DH: Yeah. "You should probably go back to school, read a book!"
[Both laugh]
PB: Yeah, probably.
DH: So I'm going to demonstrate my lack of skill when it comes to interviewing and slightly, bluntly shove us in another direction. When you were at school - this is something I've been sort of reading up on and seeing in a lot of books and stuff - did you experience any racism growing up that you now look back on as an adult and sort of see it for what it was?
PB: Not necessarily, I don't think so. I was very fortunate that because I went to school in South London, my secondary school was very diverse, hugely so. And so actually, I'm currently reading Natives by Akala, which is so, so, so good. And he actually makes a point of saying which I definitely noticed: so in primary school, three of my best mates at that time were all white. And then going into secondary school, I went to my secondary school with one of my best mates Sam (who's white). And I always noticed it, that actually whenever we went into school - like we'd get the bus together into school - but then he would go off to his mates who were white and I'd go off to my mates who were black.
DH: Wow.
PB: And yeah, because Akala makes that point and it's so true. A lot of my friends from secondary school were black and I think it's just that thing of just kind of more recognising who you are as a person and people that go through similar things. So I don't necessarily think I saw any racism during secondary school, but any racism that I had received was very much... well, not "received", that makes it sound like I was asking for it!
DH: [Jokes] Sort of you purchased it!
PB: [Laughs] Yeah, yeah! "Thank you!" Any racism I'd experienced was kind of happening to me through later towards my life I reckon, around 18, 19.
DH: Wow, okay.
PB: Maybe it's because I'm more aware, maybe I'm more aware now of what it is. But yeah, through secondary school - I don't think I was anyway... who knows. But yeah, definitely towards later in my life, I've definitely experienced some things.
DH: And what form does it take? Is it kind of... I guess the question I guess I want to ask is I grew up thinking racism was just using offensive language.
PB: Right.
DH: And I kind of learned what words to use and what not to use. And I'm ashamed to say it, I learned some of those words that you shouldn't use too late in my life - I think in my early 20's.
PB: Sure.
DH: But I think I'm sort of learning now that the idea of racism and being racist is much more insidious than just shouting at somebody in the street. I think we like it when things are obvious and forgive the kind of expression, but when it's black and white.
PB: Yeah.
DH: You know, when there's a clear kind of divide between what's racist and what's not racist. But actually it seems that it's much more insidious than certainly I thought it was for quite a long time.
PB: Yeah, I think that's the thing and it's something that I've come to realise a lot more. It's like taking the US and the UK, for example. So I think it's very easy for the UK to go around and say, "Well actually we're not like the US, because at least we're not going around killing black people, for example", which obviously isn't entirely true. You've got Mark Duggan, Stephen Lawrence, you know we do have that here. Of course, the scale isn't as bad as it is in the US but here in the UK - and actually this unsettles me more so - is the fact that it's just a lot more subtle and it's a lot more hidden. And the reason why that unsettles me is because it messes with your mental health. Because if something happens to you... if something happens to you that's not necessarily as obvious as being called the N-word for example or being shot, someone... a lot of the time people can turn around to you and a lot of the time white people can turn around to you and go, "Actually, do you really think that was racist? Do you really think they were trying to come at you that way?" And you go, "Well yeah, obviously". And so then you start to question it, you start to very much question it.
I had an audition for Central actually, Central School of Speech and Drama and it was a final round. I think it was the first final round that I'd had in that year of applying for drama school. And I remember I did [laughs] Macbeth actually, I did a Macbeth speech!
[DH laughs]
PB: And I remember doing the speech and then the head of the course who was on the panel, he saw that I did the speech and then he asked me, "Where are you from and where do you live?" And so I said, "Well you know, I'm Jamaican and I'm currently living in Beckenham", which... you know, anyone that's been to Beckenham - very white area, I mean very, very white, you know, very kind of suburban. And then he just looked at me went, "Okay, so what do you know about gang culture?" [Laughs] I was like... what?! "What?!" And he goes, "Yeah". And he was like, "What do you know about gang culture?" And so I remember saying, "Well you know... I mean I went to a good school. And you know, yeah my school was in South London and diverse - but it was actually one of the most improving schools in South London. It was a really well performing school. And my friends, they're good friends of mine, we very much... are good people! We don't, kind of, do anything otherwise. So the only thing that I'm going to know about gangs would be from like TV or films really?"
DH: But what was the objective of asking that question, do you think? What was he trying to find out?
PB: So he went on and he basically got me to redo my speech. So it was the speech where Macbeth wants Banquo killed basically..."
DH: Right...
PB: And he's talking to the Murderers to get Banquo killed. So he said, "You know, let's just pretend that way back when, these kings and stuff were like heads of gangs!"
DH: Oh my God...
PB: "Let's just say that Macbeth is a head of a gang and so you're kind of ordering like a kill on a rival gang" or something like that. And I just remember I stood there and I was like, "...okay...umm".
DH: That's so horrid.
PB: But then this is the messed up thing, because obviously at this time I'm still... so on one side I'm going, "Hang on, this isn't right". But on the other side, I'm going, "But I really want to get into drama school". Because at this point, this was like my fourth year of applying.
DH: Yeah.
PB: I really want to get into drama school at this point. I'm like, you know...
DH: And you're so vulnerable at that point.
PB: Exactly. You kind of think, "Oh well, if I react in a negative way - is that going to go against me?" At this point, you think that drama schools have a huge, huge role to play in the industry. So you go, "If I go against this - then I'm probably going to be blacklisted, so I should probably like keep my mouth shut". And I just remember like, I just saw red at that point. And so this poor girl who I had to do this speech to, I was basically just yelling...
DH: Oh my God.
PB: Absolutely just yelling my speech at her, because you know probably the outrage. But then the funny thing was, obviously I did that speech - obviously I did that speech horribly, because you know I've clearly been taken out of the context of what the speech actually is. And I remember leaving the drama school and going, "Do you know what? Actually just completely forget this. If this is what acting is, I don't want any part of it." And this was like seconds after leaving the drama school. And then I remember getting on the train back home and I thought to myself, "Did I read too much into that? Did I... maybe? I don't know."
DH: "Was it somehow your fault for like over-reacting?"
PB: Exactly, did I over-react to it? And I remember telling people about it and there were some people that were like, "Paul no, that's wrong - that clearly has to be wrong". And then I remember speaking to a couple of other people, a couple of my white mates who went, "Do you think he was being racist?" And it's just that, it's that, it's that thing.
And that's why I go back and I say that actually that's why I think racism is, it being more subtle here is a problem. Because people do question it. Well actually no, what happened then was racist. He would not have said that to a white person, he just wouldn't have. There's just absolutely no way he would have done that. He's obviously looked at me and gone, "You're a black person. You're from Jamaica, therefore you obviously must know about gang culture". Well I know nothing. I would last 30 seconds in a gang! You know what I mean? It would be horrible. So you know, I think racism kind of comes in many forms and I just think we need to be as the UK, we can always look to America, we can always go, "Racism in America..." But you know, we have racism here and I just think we need to face up to it and just be on it. Just say it for what it is a lot of the time.
And a lot of it is white people just speaking up more about about it. If you see it, say it. You know, if your friend is black, Asian, whatever is coming up to you and saying, "Oh this thing happened" or whatever, don't question it. Like, if your response is, "Yeah, but..." I mean no. No. Not at all. I think you just need to accept it for what it is and if you see it first hand, see it first hand, call it out because especially with white people and unfortunately, this is the case - you know, white people do have a bigger voice in this, you know. And I think it's up to white people just to say, "Actually, you know what? This isn't right." And actually speak out on it.
And even if you're not fully educated in it - that's fine, just admit that and just open yourself up to that. Don't try and just shy away from it; tackle it full on. So I think that's really the only way that we're going to be able to kind of fully combat this - is if everyone kind of throws their hands up and go, "Actually, do you know what? We don't know but let's learn. And actually that isn't right, what happened there wasn't fine." Rather than just sitting silent to it, you know?
DH: Yeah. I think you've touched on the thing that luckily is actually now being talked about quite a lot. And I think that I... the strange thing as a kind of white person in the middle of this, to learn that you have an unconscious bias that you're not aware of, it's quite a weird thing to accept.
PB: Yeah.
DH: And I think that's the big stage, I think you're totally right - it's just like... it's just fine to accept that you just don't know enough and that's okay. That's the first step, just to be like, "Oh, I don't know - cool, let's start the scary journey of learning". And I think that's the key.
PB: Yeah 100%. And I've said it to my white friends as well, you know - sometimes I think white people in general might be scared to say something in case it comes across offensive. And I've said this to my white friends, I've said, "Look... I would rather you say what comes into your head. If it's offensive or if it's wrong, I'm going to correct you. I'm not going to like... whatever!" But I will say to you, "Look, actually that wasn't right and here's why it's right and this is what it actually is". Because then that's how it starts really. If you don't say it, it can never change - because then you're not having the honest discussion that I think has been needed to be had for a long time.
DH: Yeah.
PB: And even if that honest discussion is uncomfortable, which it's going to be - that's something as well, we just need to have these uncomfortable discussions. And I think white people in particular... I know I keep saying, "White people, white people, white people", but you know yeah, I think white people need to accept the fact that there are some home truths, there are some uncomfortable conversations that are going to need to be had for there to be any kind of step forward really. It just needs to happen, yeah.
DH: It seems to me there's a strange kind of ironic Britishness about not talking about it, because it's sort of a very kind of stiff upper lip, we'll just pretend it's not there and move on. And I think it's this idea of having one's pride dented. And I think yeah, you are saying, "White people, white people, white people", but I think that's because it's true.
[Both laugh]
DH: I don't see many... like people of colour talking to each other being like, "I'm not sure about how you feel. I'm not sure if that's racist."
PB: Yeah.
DH: And yeah, I think it's the systemic nature of it that I think is really scary, that you... sorry not you, one - one feels like they are a part of it, so you end up being like, "Oh shit, yeah. I'm a part of it this system." And the really scary thing is I personally don't even know how I have benefited from the system.
PB: Right, right.
DH: And so I can talk to you about how (and we should be talking to you) about how you have not benefited from the system.
PB: Yeah.
DH: And I think you're totally right with the "What do you know about gangs?" story. I think... I've kind of as top of the pyramid, white, straight man kind of gone through life just being like, "Doo, doo, doo! Yeah, what's the problem guys?"
PB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DH: And like I think because I've never encountered it in a way, and so it's really... yeah, I think it's really important that people like me and white people in general accept that you may have benefitted from the system and not even really know how. And reflect on that.
PB: Yeah 100%. I think you know, it's just that: if you are a white person that's gone "I don't know how I've benefitted from the system" or "I've never had a negative impact", I think that in itself says a lot. Because it obviously means that you haven't kind of... I say "you", not you specifically Dave!
[Both laugh]
DH: Yeah.
PB: I think that just kind of says that you've had it fine. You've not had to you know... I'm being specific now, you haven't had to apply for drama school, for example, and be the only black person in your year group and go, "Well actually, am I here because I'm black or am I here because I'm talented?" You know? And you do ask yourself questions constantly, if I apply for a job interview again... I made this joke, I remember making this joke actually when I was 17, 18 and I applied for a job at this clothes shop. And I made a joke that, because my name being Paul Brown is quite a white sounding name. And I kind of made a joke that on the CV, I must come across as like a white person. And then obviously I get to the interview and then they look at me and go, "Oh well... probably not!" Because... do you know what I mean?
DH: Yeah.
PB: But that's like 17. I'm making jokes, but obviously there's a subconscious thing of going, "Well actually, this might happen".
DH: You're aware of it.
PB: Oh 100%, 100%. And I think that's the... if that hasn't even been a thought, then yeah - you've had a privilege. That in itself is a privilege.
DH: Yeah, I have never thought I would not get something because I'm white.
PB: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
DH: And I think like... but then I would also... I was just thinking, but then would I... I would never go for a part like Othello. But then at the same time, white people have played that part so that's not even a good example!
PB: But that's the thing - that's the craziest thing, white people have played that part and then blackfaced for that.
DH: I know... and it's quite recent as well.
PB: Yeah. You're just like, "Oh... what?!" The one Shakespeare part that was quote unquote 'written' for us, and it's still being taken away from us. Like... that in itself is crazy! You just don't... wow, wow.
DH: Yeah. It actually kind of brings us onto this idea of... so it was something that's featured in... I saw Blue Orange when it was at the Young Vic with David Haig and Daniel Kaluuya, am I saying that right?
PB: Yeah.
DH: Yeah. And first of all, it was an amazing show - I absolutely loved it. And it was also something that David Harewood mentioned in his documentary, he talks about... there’s a documentary called Psychosis and Me. And he talks about when he left drama school, he played Romeo in Romeo and Juliet. And there was loads of reviews that came out and some of the language used in reviews is really... quite disgusting. But the thing that really hit him was that he was referred constantly to as "black Romeo" or as "the black production of Romeo and Juliet", as a kind of unique feature. And he said that he started to find (and it kind of relates to the story of the main character in Blue Orange) that actually if everybody looks at you slightly differently every day and you start to think, "Are people looking at me differently or thinking about me differently everyday?" Even if it's just small, imperceptible, tiny, nuanced bits of discussion or just a glance in the street - and you've touched on it as well - this idea that it must affect your mental health, where you start to go, "Am I crazy? Or did that really just happen? Did the guy really ask me to perform a speech from Macbeth as a sort of gang leader ordering a hit on another gang leader?"
PB: Yeah.
DH: "Like, is that normal? Should I be angry at that?" And of course you should but... it's this idea of kind of identifying with this insidious, these tiny, tiny examples that kind of get you every day. Is that something that you feel happens particularly in drama schools?
PB: Yeah, definitely. You know, for sure. I mean it's the thing... so in the year above me at drama school, there was a play that was put on and... I mean there wasn't a lot of diversity at my drama school anyway. But I think it was that year where they had enough people where they could actually put this cast together for this play. And it just kept on being called "the black play". And it just... I remember feeling that type of way about it and I wasn't even in the play. But I know people that were in the cast just kept saying, "But this isn't a black play. It's just a play."
DH: Is this a play with a cast of some black people in it?
PB: Yeah, yeah. And again, the only reason why they could do the play was because they actually had the cast - they actually had enough black people to be able to do the play. But because of that, it just kept being called "the black play"... again, it's othering.
DH: Yeah.
PB: Because it's that thing - you will never see like a... again, quote unquote "traditional" Romeo and Juliet and go, "the white play". You would never call it "the white play". You would never, it would never happen. And so why having someone like David Harewood being Romeo, yeah of course he's a black Romeo - he's a black man playing Romeo! But he's still just Romeo. There's no... at the end of the day, people that do that people that kind of say, you know, "Black Romeo, black this, black that" - you are putting us in a box, you're very much putting us in a box. You're very much going, "Okay, yeah. You can play Romeo - but you know... it's different. It's not really traditional, it's not really how it should be. But we're going to give you this, here you go."
DH: Yeah. Or the idea that it's kind of exciting and different in some way.
PB: Oh 100%. And I think that's why a lot... I think that's a reason why a lot of drama schools and theatre institutions, that for them is how they draw on saying (shall I say) that they've "got" inclusivity, that they've got diversity. By going, "Oh, it's fine! We actually are pretty diverse because we've got a black play. We've got a black Romeo! What, that's so crazy! And because of that, we can now draw in a black audience." Which yes, it's great - amazing. And we do need to see more of that. But don't do it at the expense of just othering us, don't do it because it's tokenistic, don't do it because it's going to get you 4, 5 stars from The Guardian for example. Don't do it for that, just put the play on. Just put the play on and just have it is what it is, you know?
DH: Yeah and it's that thing of it being... yeah, I think you've said it pretty brilliantly actually. The idea of othering coming from a place of being like... it's sort of signalling, isn't it? Virtue signalling of just being like, "We have a black Romeo, so all is well!"
PB: Yeah.
DH: But actually, you don't... what you've failed to do is just get a good actor to play Romeo that happens to be black.
PB: Yeah. And you know, it kind of comes to this whole point - like effectively and I think the whole reason why we have the Black Lives Matter movement in the first place - is ultimately all we're still asking (which is crazy that I'm saying this in 2020) but all we're asking for is equality. Like that is effectively all it is. We're not asking to be on top, we're not asking to kind of conquer and destroy white people and kind of whatever. We are literally just asking to have a seat at the table with white people. That's effectively all it is.
DH: Yeah.
PB: And so simply by keep referring to it as like "the black play" or "black Romeo" or "black this, black that", you're not doing that. You're very much still putting us in a box, still putting us in our place, you know? And I think people just need to realise that, that's all it is - you know?
DH: Well I think that's kind of one of the points I wanted to talk about as well, the kind of use of language. And I think it's this idea of... it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about the idea of forms of racism being more overt. Using the N-word, for example, is a really clear example to me where I go, "Oh, well that person's used a racist word - so that's a really easy thing to spot". But I actually had a discussion with Charlie and I read an article and... so for example, I knew that "people of colour" is a more accepted term than "coloured people". And I'd learned that quite a while ago, many, many years ago that referring to someone as "coloured" or saying "coloured people" is an offence term and you shouldn't use it.
PB: Yeah.
DH: Now I learned that, I stopped using it and I moved on. But never once did it occur to me that the reason (or one of the reasons) that is an offensive term is because it was... "coloured people" was something that was given by white people. And so when talking "coloured bathrooms" or "coloured water taps" and queues and things like that and different places for people to sit on the bus, it's this idea which I'm ashamed to say is quite a new idea to me - this idea of othering through the use of language. By being like so... I was using the term "non-white" for quite a while and was just like... but Charlie was like, "Well what that does is that infers that whiteness is normal".
PB: Yeah.
DH: That whiteness is the baseline. And anything that is not white, regardless of black, brown, Asian, whatever... it's just whiteness is the kind of yard stick, upon which other races are measured.
PB: Yeah.
DH: And so yeah, that's quite a strange... and it makes a lot of sense, completely. And as soon as I'd heard it, I was like, "Oh wow, okay. I need to reset a bit here." And I think yeah, the use of language is really important. And as you say, referring to it as a kind of "black play" is othering.
PB: Yeah and I think as well... so it's interesting that you brought up like "people of colour" and "BAME", for example. So personally myself, I don't like "BAME" and I don't like "people of colour" personally, because...
DH: [Jokes] You mean the language, not the people?
PB: [Laughs] Yeah!
[Both laugh]
PB: Yeah, no! I love black, Asian, brown people - I love you all! But I don't like the language of it, because it's still to me - that's still othering. It's still very much putting us in a box effectively. Like "BAME" for example. You know BAME is Black, Asian and minority ethnic. However, I still find that being used to describe a person, a black person.
Now I'm black and I don't want to be called BAME because I'm not black, Asian and minority ethnic. I'm just black. So I would very much prefer if someone did call me black, than put me in a group such as people of colour or BAME. And I just think that... you're just saying it for what it is. Again, you're not bunching us altogether, you're not... yeah, you're just not grouping us altogether. You're allowing us to have our own spaces.
Because at the end of the day, black culture and within black culture you've got different cultures - so you've got Ghanaian, Nigerian, Zimbabwean, Jamaican, Bajan, you've got all these different cultures within the black demographic. And then you've got Asian, so you've got Indian, Japanese, Chinese and they've got their own culture which is very different that. And so if you bunch them altogether into one thing, you're saying it's all the same and it's not. It's really not.
DH: Yeah.
PB: So personally, I would do away with those... with that kind of language.
DH: The sort of grouping.
PB: Yeah, the grouping. It's not needed, it's just not needed. Just say it for what it is - if you need a black actor, say you need a black actor. Don't call it, like BAME - don't say you need a BAME actor, because that in itself is so general...
DH: "Yeah, we need to kind of get someone in who isn't white. So we call them..." Yeah, I see actually - that makes a lot of sense. So how do you feel about auditions that are... I'm going to use the term BAME now - but the auditions that are specifically aimed? Where like a company or a group may say, "We're going to have a day where we're only auditioning people of colour or BAME actors or non-white actors". Is that a thing that feels still slightly reductive, or is that something that is a kind of positive step?
PB: Um... in a way, it still feels reductive to me because... so like, I'll use the example of Blue Story for example, which is a film that I really enjoy and I really got a lot out of myself. But like for example, that casting... I don't know what that casting breakdown would have been, but that would have been... obviously the target people of the breakdown would have been black people, right? So that kind of is what it is. I think then if there's another film or another play and they're purposefully seeking... they're only seeking black people, it kind of just feels... actually, okay... I'm just trying to process what I'm trying to say! [Laughs]
You're like, "Okay..." It kind of just feels like an Open Day for black people. It kind of just feels like, "Oh this is your day to show up and have your space". And actually again, it comes back to the same equality thing - we just want, like I don't mind being in the same room as a white person as long as there is an equality in that. As long as I don't get the job just because I'm black and as long as he doesn't get the job because he's white - I'm fine, I'm fine with that.
DH: Yeah.
PB: What is unsettling for me is when there are specific calls for black actors in a space which isn't traditionally diverse. You know?
DH: Yeah.
PB: It very much does kind of feel like an Open Day for black people, which I don't think is... you know, I can understand why it may seem like it is progressive - but in actual fact, I don't really think it is.
DH: Yeah, I agree and I understand that that makes... again, it's sort of like... yeah, "Open Day for black people" sounds quite horrible, doesn't it? And I think that's probably quite a good term to put on it, because it sort of exposes a light on I suppose actually what's really happening.
PB: Yeah.
DH: And I think... well actually, let's talk about... because I was just going to move us on - but I think we should actually move on to talk about your experience in Groan Ups.
PB: Yeah.
DH: So the hit West End Mischief show: Groan Ups! And you... I've just realised actually during this - so you understudied me at one point...
PB: [Laughs] Yeah!
DH: So you are Paul Brown, understudying me who is white, playing Mr White!
[Both laugh]
PB: Yeah! I had that thought in rehearsals, I was like, "Oh, this is funny!"
DH: [Jokes] There are so many kind of strange colours here!
So you were... you understudied, you understudied Henry, you were first cover for me, first cover for Henry Shields and Henry Lewis, is that right?
PB: No, so I was first cover for you and Henry Lewis and then second cover for Henry Shields.
DH: And you went on for Archie a few times, didn't you?
PB: I did, yes.
DH: Yeah. So I guess my question is how did you find... did it feel different understudying somebody white in a...? Because it's kind of hard with Mischief as well, because we're creating the parts as we go along. So it's not like you've gone into a Shakespeare play and there's a white actor playing Romeo and you're understudying that actor. But does it feel different to you if one of the parts you've been understudying was being played by a black person, say?
PB: Um... yeah, I think it is different. I think there's... there are certain things that when I'm understudying a white actor, obviously there are certain things that they can do that I necessarily can't do. Even if it's as small as like a small mannerism, for example. There are certain things that I can do that a white couldn't do. And so it basically just means that our parts are actually going to be more different than anything, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
But it's definitely a challenge, because you know - there were times when I was in rehearsals and obviously you guys and then... I remember there was a conflict within me going, "Okay, but am I..." And I think this also came from me - this just being my first job out of drama school - and so I'm trying to figure things out, but I think there were of me, questions in my head going, "Okay - but am I meant to do it like this? If I do it like this, that doesn't... feel right in my body. So how shall I go about it?" And then there was finally a switch and my head actually went, "Do you know what? Just do what... I can only do what I can do." And so yeah - I think there is a difference for understudying a part like that for example.
DH: How would you feel if you were (to use the David Harewood example actually) if you were understudying... he was playing Romeo and you were understudying him? So you have a black actor playing Romeo and a black understudy. Do you feel... you might not be able to answer it, but hypothetically would you feel slightly more comfortable or slightly less aware of it?
PB: Yeah, probably. I think I would 100% be more comfortable. Just because yeah... it's that thing of when they say that kids when they're young, the reason why we need to have more diversity on screens and in plays in the first place is because if kids watch it, they recognise themselves and there's an attachment to that. I think it's the same with understudying, personally. If I was to understudy David Harewood, you know - I'd recognise myself in him - not 100%, he's a different person to me. But I go, "Oh, okay - I get it, I get why he might have made that choice", for example. Because it's something that resonates with me as a black man. So yeah.
DH: I wonder... I'm just sort of thinking now if the same were true the other way, if I were understudying a black person, would I have that thought? And I wonder if... I think this is probably an example of my privilege again... that I wouldn't think, I don't think it would occur to me. I think I would... I think my baseline would be not that it would be strange. I'd be like, "Oh I'm just a white guy" and I don't have to worry about being black or living up to anything. I'm just a different person, doing a different performance.
PB: Yeah.
DH: But for me, that's not a problem because my baseline is that my skin colour is quote unquote "normal".
PB: Right.
DH: And so... yeah, I think as I sort of say it out loud - I sort of realise that that's kind of what everyone should feel like. Do you know what I mean?
PB: 100%, 100%.
DH: I think it's really kind of... I guess right now I feel a kind of sense of guilt about that, but also at the same time it's like... I shouldn't feel guilty like that, but other people should just feel... like that!
[Both laugh]
PB: Yeah, I get that, I get that. Yeah.
DH: Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm glad we talked about that because that had never really occurred to me before. So we're coming up to 55 minutes now, so I'm going to start to bring us to a close.
PB: Right.
DH: And the last thing I want to talk about is something... so it's the response to Black Lives Matter is All Lives Matter. And I... in the interest of being open and honest, I have a problem with this. But I don't want to voice that problem before you. So do you feel that it is a damaging argument, a damaging counter argument to the Black Lives Matter movement?
PB: Oh yeah, massively.
DH: And in what way?
PB: Because it's you know... the Black Lives Matter movement started because black men in America (again it happens here in the UK too) - but black men in America are being killed by police officers you know unlawfully. And that's where it started, that's why we're having the protests, that's the reason why we're having to really have to push that out as the message in the first place.
For someone to then come out and say "All Lives Matter", it's like... you've completely and utterly just missed the point. You've completely, completely missed the point of the reason why this message is having to come out in the first place. Because we're not seeing this happen with white people - and you know, it might be happening - but it's...
DH: It's not on the same scale.
PB: Yeah. And again, by... all lives matter, yes. That is a fact. And all lives should matter, yes. But it's just very evident at the moment that black lives don't.
DH: Yeah, I think that's key. I got in a... not a kind of Twitter debate - I try and avoid them where I can. Because I get quite stressed and anxious by them, because I think they're such an easy medium to hide and not have your opinion changed because you don't actually have to engage with someone. And I think I remember responding to a guy basically saying that to me it feels like the assumption should always, always be that All Lives Matter all of the time. But it feels to me now that particularly black lives don't... are not part of that assumption.
PB: Yeah.
DH: And I think that's the problem - it's like, "Oh yeah, all lives do matter. But we would just like to include black lives in that - if that's okay with everyone?"
[Both laugh]
PB: Yeah, which is crazy. And also, by the way - when I say Black Lives Matter, it's not in regards to... it's not a kind of hashtag or a phrase to be used every time a black person is killed. We mean it in all facets. I think I tweeted it the other day when I said if you're saying Black Lives Matter, you mean it in every sense of the word. It means that jobs for example, you need to make sure that jobs are diverse and you need to make sure that these positions are being held by more black people. It kind of trickles through every facet of life. So if you are a company or an organisation or whoever saying Black Lives Matter, you really do mean it in every sense of the word. And it's in every sense of the phrase and it's not just a trend, just because George Floyd has been killed.
DH: Yeah.
PB: You're not just saying it every time then; you're saying it every day. And meaning it in every way of life, because at the moment - it is very clear to see that white people's lives matter more at the moment. And that needs to change, so yeah.
DH: Great. Well thank you very much for talking to us Paul and I'm very excited for this podcast to go out. Actually before we close, this is a great opportunity to plug some reading material. Any reading material you'd like to recommend, particularly for white people but for anyone who wants to be more clued up on the Black Lives Matter movement?
PB: 100%. So I've actually put together a reading list, I've started to put together a reading list on my Twitter. And I aimed it mainly for black students - just because I think it's more important, I think it's really important that black students kind of have much more of an awareness and understanding of their culture and their heritage. But I think there are books in here that I think white people can read.
I'm just getting it up at the moment... So yeah, Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race - just a massively, massively important book. And actually the great thing is the writer actually put out a tweet saying she doesn't want to actually profit from what's going on at the moment. So if you have a friend who has a copy, ask to borrow it from the friend and then donate any money to the George Floyd Fund for example.
DH: Sure.
PB: And things like that, because she doesn't feel comfortable in profiting from that. But yeah, so you've got that book - you've got Natives, the book that I mentioned earlier from Akala.
DH: That's a great book.
PB: Amazing book, absolutely brilliant book. So if you can, get on that. And then there's another one, another book that I actually read a few months ago - The Autobiography of Malcolm X which is a great, great, great book. Just because I think there is very much a stigma around Malcolm X.
Obviously, you've got Martin Luther King who is seen as like... he obviously was... he kind of went for equality through a peaceful route. And then you've got Malcolm X on the surface, who seemed like to be the guy who just wanted to rebel and just absolutely go crazy with it. And yeah, Malcolm X started out like that - but actually reading the book, you see that due to his faith and his religion and towards the end of his life, he did see the positive side of kind of going through a peaceful route of doing it. So yeah, those are my books that I would recommend.
DH: Very good. Paul!
PB: Yeah!
DH: Again, thank you so much.
PB: Thank you, thank you. It's been great.
DH: And you can (you probably do) follow us on @MischiefComedy - but you can (if you don't, do!) to get all of our latest podcasts. And Paul, what is your Twitter handle?
PB: So I am @Paul_Br0wn with a zero for the O for Brown.
DH: Very good and you can have a look at your reading list on your Twitter as well.
PB: Yeah, it's all up on there - so yeah, that would be great.
DH: Wonderful. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for listening and keep making Mischief!
PB: Yeah!